#miraculous speculation

[imthepunchlord]

Rewatching Timebreaker, in hindsight to knowing what the watch is, this intro to it makes it so weird.

Specifically the watch's ability to make a hologram.

Assuming this watch was always planned to be the Rabbit Miraculous, does that mean that all Miraculous can make holograms? Or have some unique minor ability they can do and this is what the Rabbit can do?

Which, for something related to time travel, it's kinda random.

Unless Rabbit wasn't planned to have time traveling powers, but potentially, originally was the illusionist instead of Fox.

Which wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Rabbit.

White rabbits are an iconic animal that's tied to magicians, who are expert illusionists.

To add to it, the rabbit is tied the trickster archetype. Europe has tied rabbits to other-worldliness and the fae. And there is an Indian fable of the Clever Rabbit and the Foolish/Hungry Lion. Where the Lion decreed all animals were to sacrifice themselves so he can eat, and when it was the Rabbit's turn, the Rabbit told the Lion that there was another lion nearby, and led the Lion to a well/watering hole and pointed to the reflection in the water. The Lion drowned trying to fight his reflection, saving the Rabbit and other animals from being devoured.

Which a reflection can count as another illusion.

This can even work off Alice in Wonderland as illusions can be tied to dreams, and they can be creative and surreal and strange.

As for the time motif, it can play off time is an illusion.

So IF that watch was always planned to be the Rabbit Miraculous, I wonder if it was originally the illusionist instead of the time traveler; as the ability for the watch to make a hologram is just so random.

As for Fox, given that Volpina "the False Fox" was an illusionist, there was a possibility that the actual Fox wasn't. And Thomas Astruc had confirmed that Pied Piper was a Fox (hence the flute).

Potentially, Fox originally had a power of hypnosis or subconscious manipulation through music, also working off how music can influence you.

Which this ability is what I associate Pied Piper with more than illusions, and it would work better off Fox playing the flute to use the power, as playing it to make illusions is a weird choice. Anyone hearing that music would know an illusion is coming, but not so if the music could enthrall you and influence how you perceive the world, what you register.

To add to it, this can work off the 9 tailed foxes too, I have read that some did have the ability to hypnotize; this can also work off that infamous ability to possess a target, taking over another.

A lot of this is just speculation though.

It's hard to say if the watch even was always planned to be a Miraculous, if the Zodiac were even always planned. Some things just feel like they rolled out and there were definite changes that had been made, some of which I'm sure were done to keep to the status quo easier and not drastically change up the story (like Mayura was built up to be a bigger bad and bigger threat, actually be HM's boss, but nah, that'd change up too much, can't have that).

[tricieslune]

I like to make speculations on what might happen in season 6 just for fun sometimes. Todays what if idea was crazy tho.

Lila/Cerisse is hell-bent on wrecking Marinette’s life, and throughout Season 6 she absolutely nails it. Marinette's world crumbles bit by bit. But then, the finale hits like a freight train—One of Lila's schemes cost Marinette one or both of her parents. The pain is unbearable. Season 7 Marinette? She’s not the same, not even close. She’s hardened, haunted. the sweet girl we knew is barely holding on. She's totally unhinged.

I just had this thought because I was thinking how most of the MC's had lost at least one parent or had parental issues. Marinette was always an exception but like what if ???? I told this to my sister she started bawling.

[matt0044]

Theory: Lila is in disguise as various background characters.

In Sublimation, we see somebody in the stands walk away without showing their face. Either an employee of Tsurugi who reported to Tomoe or...

Given her tendency to play dress up (and serving if I may say), odds are that Lila wouldn't wear the same clothes when going out for food. I love the idea of her frequenting Marinette's family bakery of all the coincidences or us getting a mini-montage of past episodes revealing her to be scoping out her potential champions.

Say... she was at the resturant when she felt Maya's need for attention.

[2manyfandoms2count]

I wonder how the multiverse came to be? Maybe through mullo?

Interesting thought! I seem to recall that Tikki was the first Kwami to ever be created, so I'd assume that if she exists simultaneously everywhere, then the Multiverse was born at the same time as her/was there before her, but Mullo is pretty chaotic, it would be pretty funny if there was one timeline and then for instance Plagg and Mullo started talking about their common love of cheese, and Mullo decided to make more universes to expand the amount of cheese that might be invented akhjkefhhg

[richardsphere]

I really hope the Lila=Future!Manon theory is BS.

cause... well its kind of messed up on an audience-relationship level? I dont really know how to put it right. And i might just be misreading this or drawing parallel's that aren't intended. So please forgive me if im speaking entirely from from my ass here.

But it feels (to me) like it'd be the equivalent of a "Lex Luthor was secretly Jimmy Olsen" twist. See, The show isnt just aimed at Marinette-aged kids, its also aimed at their littler siblings who have to share the household's one singular tv set, which is why Manon is such a prominent recurring character. To allow those little siblings to enjoy the show with their older siblings, and give them a bit of representation. This makes her like the Jimmy Olsen of the show. In the way that Jimmy existed to allow Supes to serve as a parental-figure to children reading the comics, Manon exists to allow the really little kids to see Marinette as a "Cool Big Sister"-figure, because they're not old enough to see Marinette as a "them"-figure. So given that I suspect there to be a non-zero percentage of the audience for whom their "audience insertion-character" isn't Marinette but Manon. That theory feels to me like i'd kind of be a betrayal to them.

[nothingtherefornow]

Do you ever think that the only reason Gabriel and Emilie fall in love is because they represent the opposite of their lives, what they wanted and who they are? Because I look at it, Emilie was raised to be the perfect daughter for when she finally came of age, she'll inherit everything her parents expected of her; Gabe always states how perfect Emilie is, and no one could match her, even Adrien. Gabe always strives for perfection. While Gabriel, it's obvious he was rebellious and more carefree, which shows he has a lot of freedom in his life, which Emilie always wanted, as we saw in Felix's play. That's how I see their love story; what do you think?

I've never thought about that ! you're making a very interrestin point here.

Gabriel may have secretly been envious of the rich and the wealthy when he was young, and I can somehow also imagine Gabriel becoming obsessed with the image of beauty and perfection the more he tried to become a man worthy of Emilie.

And Emilie was such a free and curious spirit restricted by her royal duties and the strictness of he parents, so of course a Punk, fre, mischievous and rebellious person like Gabriel would enchant her, the typical bad boy who represent the escape from a life that Emilie doesn't want.

So there's indeed a possibility that Emilie and Gabriel had mostly been in love with the idea of each others and what they represented

[afayebray]

So I haven't been reading a ton of spoilers but I know people aren't happy with Marinette's behavior, especially regarding Adrien...but it's like, no matter how much she wishes she was just a normal 14/15yo, she's not. And even if she was...she's still a 14/15yo. They make questionable choices in relationships and friendships and the just life in general. And that's without trauma, anxiety out the ass, intense feelings of guilt, and likely undiagnosed AuDHD or ADHD with severe maladaptive daydreaming and rejection sensitive dysphoria/RSD because France (and not having the coping skills or therapy outside of Luka to learn and work through things). So she's feeling extra insecure. And is *very* paranoid after the London special due to the threat of a new Butterfly holder that is almost a complete unknown and who has already successfully (temporarily) made a wish and she can't even explain to people why she's so paranoid.

Just think about it. Her scene with Alya and Su-Han where she talks to them at the end about diving to look for the Miraculous and not finding it takes place *after* the events of London. Which means she already knew someone had it and even fought them. And she's leaving them (or likely at least Alya) in the dark. So Alya doesn't even understand her actions and insecurities. She thinks it's just classic pre-relationship s1-3 Marinette and it's far from it.

This is just something I've obviously been thinking of quite a bit but this particular post with her doom spiral helped bring it all together. I suppose we'll see if they retcon that discussion from the finale last season or possibly have a scene that was supposed to take place after her telling one or both about everything that happened. (I don't remember what happened in the discussion with Su-Han at the end of Ephemeral...but does he perhaps recognize like the kwamis do when a wish is made since he's part of the Order? Or would he forget after it was resolved since it didn't technically happen anymore. It'd be interesting if they were somehow in time with that.) Or she may break down and tell Alya (or Luka, Feligami, Nathalie, etc.) within the first couple eps, mirroring s4.

AITA for lying to my bf about his dead father and mother and being consumed by guilt about it

[bylerst5]

Vecna seeing byler kiss in the upside down

[uptoolateart]

Anyone notice how many times Ladybug talked about herself in third person in the London Special?

As soon as she told that lie about Gabriel and Tomoe, she began separating herself from what she'd done. She's coping through dissociation.

Throughout S1-5, she and Adrien were on paths towards integration. They were learning to see that he already was Cat Noir and she already was Ladybug. The strength lay within all along.

But by being untrue, she's gone backwards, splitting her two selves rather than unifying them. She's attempting to compartmentalise Marinette's relationship with Adrien from Ladybug's...which is unworkable.

In a word...our girl is a mess. She's supposedly doing all this to protect Adrien - but who's protecting her?

[mamayura]

Revelator analysis: Marinette remembering the Umbrella scene incorrectly

You know what I find really interesting about the interview scene in "Revelator" where Adrinette retells how they met? Marinette is actually getting a few details wrong.

Mind you, no deal breakers. She got all the emotional beats down accurately. And I will only truly take this as canon anyway when the French original has her misremember things the same way. But for now, it's really interesting that MARINETTE is the one who gets a couple of details wrong about the moment she fell SO in love with Adrien, while Adrien himself is out here making no such mistake in the whole interview:

This is correct. Simple as that.

This one... is on very thin ice. In reality, Marinette had just left the building and noticed it was raining when Adrien started talking to her. Yes, she was ready to wait until the rain stopped, but she never truly got to the waiting part:

But, by all means, if this were only this detail, I wouldnt make this post right now. Even if, factually, she didnt wait, she just noticed it was raining and thought she had to wait.

But let's get back to this later because there is another layer to this that was the catalyst for me writing this. But for now, moving on:

This is correct again. Adrien, in fact, had an umbrella.

But here is the thing:

This is... straight up wrong. Objectively. What Marinette reacted negatively to was Adrien trying to be friendly and saying "Hi" to her:

He only offered his umbrella at the end, so Marinette claiming so confidently in "Revelator" that she at first turned down the umbrella is false. Adrien opened it for himself because he was the one standing in the rain for a bit while explaining his perspective:

I sure don't see any umbrellas being turned down here, Marinette. So what exactly are you remembering? Just saying.

From this point onwards, the Adrinette interview is accurate again because 1) it's about the emotional core of it, and 2) well, Adrien is then talking the most because it's about him and Marinette is mostly just adding to it. So, yeah...

Look, I don't wanna say that this is some deep betrayal of love and proof that Marinette's love for Adrien isnt real. Of course not. And again, there is still the chance that the line in question is right in the French original (though, I do gotta say, I doubt it because that would change the natural flow of the conversation)

I just find it interesting that the thing about THE Umbrella scene that Marinette gets wrong is the UMBRELLA itself and how and when it was extended to her.

Cause, well... This is not a documentary. Marinette is not a real life person who can mix some things up without it meaning anything. She's the main character and the main narrative tool of the story.

This is the moment SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH ADRIEN. Pretty much 80% of what she does in this show goes back to this moment. In story-telling practice, yes, her being the one who recalls that moment incorrectly should mean something.

Bad faith reading: it's a major indicator that Marinette is actually not as invested in Adrien and their relationship anymore as she was once upon a time. Her needs and desires have changed and that's causing problems now.

Good faith reading (and I genuinely mean good faith reading. Fucking BEST faith reading, in my opinion):

The details that Marinette gets wrong about the Umbrella scene actually correspond with the ending of "Strike Back" where Marinette's lightning moment happened with Chat Noir:

Cause if you combine Marinette's memories of the Umbrella scene with the Strike Back scene, then, yes, Marinette WOULD remember standing way longer in the RAIN before Adrien eventually came to her:

Not because that's how it factually happened in "Origins", but because she was alone in the rain for a solid bit before Chat Noir arrived in "Strike Back".

But the most important thing is that, if you combine the two lightning scenes, this objectively incorrect line actually checks out again:

Because the moment Marinette fell in love with Chat Noir was about him having extended his hand several times but her having pushed him away and held at arms length:

Marinette in the Umbrella scene didnt turn down Adrien's umbrella. Not only because that simply didnt happen, but also because Adrien only had the opportunity to offer it ONCE which she then immediately took. Chat Noir, on the other hand (is that a pun?), did offer the gesture she then fell in love with more than once, which she initially turned down, but eventually accepted.

So, again, worst faith reading: we were supposed to pick up on Marinette remembering the iconic Umbrella scene incorrectly which is supposed to subtly tell us that life has changed Marinette's feelings for Adrien for the worse because she's simply not the girl she was a year ago and the love she once wanted doesnt fit her needs anymore, so it's fading and getting drowned out.

Best faith reading: It's a subtle hint that the love she once wanted doesnt really fit her needs anymore, but the one that does more and more now is Chat Noir who, as we all know, is Adrien Agreste.

Though, no matter which one it is, one truth remains: Marinette remembered the UMBRELLA SCENE wrong and that means something.

[cakemousse]

alright unless proven otherwise, i'm going to hc that toxinelle's crush is actually griffe noire

or a “crush who doesn’t think I’m a lame-o”! credits to @2manyfandoms2count for the translation

it's unfortunate... but hear me out

the salters always say that the lovesquare is toxic codependency, imma show you what real toxic codependency really is, on the part of emonette at least

'he's rude as fuck and disrespects her all the time, there's no way emonette would fall for him' while this is true and i would agree under normal circumstances, toxinelle came from a world where she didn't have anyone, no super awesome friends to inspire her everyday, no best friend in life and in death, no mum who is gentle and calm, nothing. she's lonely and has nothing to fall back on, but you know who she can fall back on? griffe noire

even if he does let her fall

he is the only constant she has in her life, at least ever since she got her miraculous. even if it means getting insulted left and right by him, she puts up with him

why? cause if she doesn't she'll truly lose the only thing she has 'going' in her life

and we can see that after she read marinette’s diary about the part where ladybug and chat noir are partners or rather teammates, she looks at griffe noire, as though she’s thinking of being teammates with him. it’s something she wants, and we know it’s something she truly wants by the end of the special

also in this universe, emodrien has a crush on emonette, so what's preventing toxinelle to have a crush on griffe noire?

toxinelle isn’t happy, we can tell when she poured her heart out to ladyfly about everything and then finally about her crush thinking she’s lame all the time, but there isn’t much she can do if she wants her constant to continue be by her side

loneliness really does some fucked up things to a person huh?

the concept’s pretty fitting of a villain don’t you think? 🥲

[passionfruitpenguino]

I hope we get a scarf reveal soon. I feel like, with the inevitable “Gabriel was Monarch and Marinette lied about it” reveal, it could be interesting for Adrien to have a “Marinette made this scarf and never told me it wasn’t a gift from my dad” reveal. Because the scarf is an AGGRESSIVELY saner example of Marinette keeping something hidden for the sake of Adrien’s feelings; it could possibly help him see her motivations in a different context and be more forgiving when he realizes the truth about his father

[matt0044]

How might "Iris Verdi" operate as the new Hawk Moth?

I feel that she'd put her twisted tongue to good use in inciting moments of discord with certain students not unlike Chloe but being more subtle about it compared to Ms. Queen Bee. She'd duck somewhere out of the way and release an Akuma. She could also take a risk by detransforming and joining the crowd of bystanders to create consistent alibis, given she hasn't the Peacock to create a Sentimonster duplicate.

When not in school, she might be daring enough to jump into the fray to join her Champion. Trying to get Ladybug and Chat Noir separated so she can hone in on one or the other. It'd add to the Marinette vs. Lila friction if the theory of her knowing the former's Ladybug holds up.

Though given all other Miraculous have full time holders, she'd likely keep her distance mostly.

There's also the matter of Tomoe Tsurugi.

I can see Tomoe trying to distance herself from Gabriel lest he be found out as Monarch to keep her tech company from crumbling after Alliance goes belly-up (that's a major profit loss if there ever was one).

However, since Lila got Nathelie to give all of Gabriel's secrets to her as Hoaxer, this would include Tomoe's connections and Kagami (who has fallen into Lila's grasp as her "BFF") being a Sentimonster. Chances are that she'll use this as leverage for her own ends.

Then there's the matter of her knowing of Gabriel's secrets:

Given that Lila knows Monarch's true identity and how both Chat Blanc and Ephemeral showed Adrien becoming the most powerful Akumatized Villain, I feel like that's something the new Hawk Moth has in store for a Season Finale where she crafts one hell of a Champion out the Cat Holder.

It also feel like the most dramatic circumstances for The Reveal(TM) to take place in the prime timeline, especially if Lila knows that Marinette is Ladybug (she had observed Bug Noir's final battle and dived into the water for the Moth Brooch). What other revenge would be just as satisfying?

[monpetitchattriste]

At last my dreams have come along

[gale-gentlepenguin]

Okay so what if, Gabriel put one last order in the Adrien's Amok.

Almost like a Failsafe.

But for it to activate, Adrien needs to be holding the Butterfly Miraculous.

The moment he is holding it, Adrien only has one directive. Get the ladybug and Cat miraculous by any means necessary. And use the wish to Restore his Family.

And there we see Adrien become the final villain of Miraculous Ladybug.

Where is becomes a Fight of getting Adrien back to how he was, but Adrien Cant stop himself because the order wont let him think any thoughts except for Getting to his amok. But if they destroy it he dies.